how old were achilles and patroclus

how old were achilles and patroclus

He was modest, dependable, wise, a man richly endowed."[6]. Hector then killed Patroclus by stabbing him in the stomach with a spear. There are some surviving ancient sources that unambiguously portray them as loversbut there are also ancient sources that explicitly deny that their relationship was ever sexual. [25] Hooker describes the necessity of Patroclus sharing a deep affection with Achilles within the Iliad. . Another believer in the romantic relationship between Patroclus and Achilles was Pindar. Today we generally tend to think of people as being either gay or straight, but this is not how the ancient Greeks generally thought of sexuality. Required fields are marked *. Mythology, Greek Heroes, History, Podcast Notes, Greek history, ancient history, bronze age, achilles, Trojan War, the Iliad, Homer, mycenaeans, Alexander the Great, Alexandria, Alexander the Great's tomb. It is hard to say whether the author of theIliadintended his audience to interpret Achilles and Patrokloss relationship as sexual. After he left the conflict at Troy, Achilles urged one of his closest friends Patroclus, to go fight in Troy, offering his armor. The idea that Patroclus and Achilles were lovers is quite old. He means in this part of the Symposium to deny the exalting character of homosexual love as it was represented by Plato; so he explicitly contradicts Phaedrus on Achilles and Patroclus (Plato, loc. Yes, we should remember that bisexuals exist, and not just exclude that as a possibility. This delay enabled her to have sufficient time to ask the divine blacksmith, Hephaestus, to recreate the armor that Achilles needed because the original armor that Achilles inherited from his father was used by Patroclus and ended up being worn by Hector when the latter killed Patroclus. Patroclus is best known for being one-half of the most epic bromances ever to grace Greek mythology. .handsome and powerfully built. Nonetheless, there are certainly a lot of passages in the poem that seem to heavily suggest that they are more than just really good friends. Ledbetter does so by comparing how Thetis comforts the weeping Achilles in Book 1 of the Iliad to how Achilles comforts Patroclus as he weeps in Book 16. So many do now. Patroclus returns as a ghost and has one final conversation with Achilles: A last request - grant it, please. Further analysis of his actions would reveal that it might also be because he felt guilty for allowing Patroclus to don his shield, making the Trojans think it was him. He is fundamentally kind, which leads his father to dislike him. For instance, Achilles is said to be sensitive toward Patroclus, but with other people, he is condescending and harsh. [18]:353 book 16,lines 6487 Patroclus defied Achilles' order and pursued the Trojans back to the gates of Troy. [5], In the account of Dares the Phrygian, Patroclus was illustrated as ". [27] (In the Iliad, it is explicitly stated that Patroclus was the older and more responsible of the two. We will return to Never bury my bones apart from yours, Achilles, let them lie togetherSo now let a single urn, the gold two-handed urn your noble mother gave you, hold our bones - together. Book 23. You've got to wonder why they bothered making a film about ancient Greece in the first place Miller also admits that she took inspiration from other sources than the Iliad to develop her story. For Patroclus part, according to the poem, he made a final request to Achilles by speaking with him as a ghost. 'glory of the father') was a childhood friend, and close wartime companion (and perhaps lover) of Achilles . At What Age Did Ancient Greek Women Typically Marry. Of course, that's because in Ancient Greece, homosexuality usually existed only in the context of pederasty, which is based in a disturbingly huge age difference. On the other hand, the Roman orator Klaudios Ailianos (lived c. 175 c. 235 CE), who wrote exclusively in Greek a few decades after Loukianoss death, simply takes the view that Achilles and Patroklos were definitely lovers as axiomatic and uses this assumption to argue that Alexander the Great and Hephaistion were lovers also. To answer this question, I examined all relevant passages in the Iliad that infer or directly discuss the ages of one or both characters using several translations, and I also used Greek dictionaries to examine the text in its original form in an attempt to remove any hint of translator bias from what Homer intended. Homer does not explicitly say they were, nor does he clearly imply it. Once again, Aischylos is clearly alluding to intercrural sex. Achilles clearly has very, very strong emotions towards Patroclus, and Patroclus evidently returns these feelings. Its exact naturewhether homosexual, a non-sexual deep friendship, or something else entirelyhas been a subject of dispute in both the Classical period and modern times. It highlights both the consequences of irresponsibility and how helpless humans are in the face of the gods. [a][16], According to Ptolemaeus Chennus, Patroclus also became the lover of the sea-god Poseidon, who taught him the art of riding horses. This is how they are portrayed, for instance, in Madeline Millers novelThe Song of Achilles(published in 2012) and in the BBC television seriesTroy: Fall of a City (released in 2018). After this, Achilles conducted a heartfelt funeral ceremony for Patroclus. [35][36], Online version at the Perseus Digital Library, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Patroclus&oldid=1158263347, This page was last edited on 2 June 2023, at 23:55. While escaping the underworld is the primary goal in critically acclaimed roguelike Hades, it's not the only thing that players can do as Zagreus. Hetaros meant "companion" or "comrade"; in Homer it is usually used of soldiers under the same commander. The Most Twisted Scene in Any Ancient Greek Novel, The Lost Ancient Greek Novel with a Lesbian Love Plot in It, Jordan Peterson Does Not Understand Ancient Languages. They both spring to their feet in surprise as the guests enter. There are many other similar moments, but I think you get the picture. Post-classical and modern interpretations, Percy, William Armstrong (2005) "Reconsiderations about Greek Homosexualities," in, Homosexuality in the militaries of ancient Greece, "Examining Greek Pederastic Relationships", "How to do the history of male homosexuality", "The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller review", "From Muse to Material: The Defiance of Homeric Identity Through Creative Adaptation", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Achilles_and_Patroclus&oldid=1158821903, Short description is different from Wikidata, Articles containing Ancient Greek (to 1453)-language text, Articles with unsourced statements from November 2011, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0, This page was last edited on 6 June 2023, at 13:01. They presented them as part of a pederastic relationship, which was a custom at the time in which an older male (usually in his twenties) formed a sexual relationship with a younger male (usually in his teens). After much talk, the embassy fails to convince Achilles to fight. Aeschines was one of the Greek statesmen who was also an Attic orator. This does not, however, mean that the Trojan War as we think of it really happened. While I do think that it is likely that there was some kind of military conflict at some point between some Mycenaean Greek kingdoms and the city of Wilusa, this war must have been so utterly different from what modern people think of when they hear the phrase Trojan War that it is not worth even calling it that. David Halperin compares Achilles and Patroclus to the traditions of Jonathan and David, and Gilgamesh and Enkidu, which are approximately contemporary with the Iliad's composition. Achilles attached Hectors lifeless body to the rear of his chariot and dragged him around the walls of the city of Troy. Achilles grievously mourned the passing of Patroclus and vowed to seek revenge. Aischylos portrayed Achilles as the erastes, or active partner, and Patroklos as the eromenos, or passive partner. It is clear that Achilles and Patroclus had an incredibly deep, intimate bond. At least not to me. Not everyone in classical Athens, however, agreed with the view that Achilles and Patroklos were lovers. During these twelve days, the battle that had been going on for almost nine years was halted as the Trojans mourned the loss of their prince and hero. All the works of Homer and Hesiod, describe Zeus, his relationships, and his life in one way or another. This explains the depth of the bond between the two. Contrary to Aischylos, however, Phaidros insists that Achilles was the eromenos and Patroklos was the erastes. Feels like wishful thinking. [14], In Plato's Symposium, written c.385 BC, the speaker Phaedrus holds up Achilles and Patroclus as an example of divinely approved lovers. What important parts of Greek myths do filmmakers always seem to get wrong? Let us summarize what we have learned about them: One of the many proofs for those believing that Achilles and Patroclus had a romantic relationship was the way Achilles reacted when he learned of the death of Patroclus. Aischines declares, as translated by Konstantinos Kapparis: First I will talk about Homer, whom we count among the oldest and wisest poets. Moreover, theIliadand theOdysseyare clearly both works of fiction, utterly detached from whatever historical basis they may have. Making the Distant Past Relevant to the Present Day. What I discovered was that the Iliad has very little to say about the ages of any characters, and although Patroclus probably was the elder of the two, there was likely very little difference in age between him and Achilles. Moreover, because in prose a penultimate Greco-Latin short o (omicron) would only be stressed in a closed syllable, the penult has sometimes been misanalysed as being closed (*p.trc.ls), which would change the English o to a short vowel: /p.trk.ls/. Later on, the Trojans continue their advance on the Greek allies base and breech the defensive wall guarding their ships. The authors intentions in this case, however, are probably irrelevant, since we do know for certain that many later Greek writersdidinterpret Achilles and Patroklos as being in a sexual relationship. Even if the myths are somehow loosely based on real individuals, the Achilles and Patrocus we know are fictional, not historical. After defeating Hector, Achilles drags his corpse by the heels behind his chariot. A former prince and Achilles 's lover, Patroclus is the novel's narrator. [20] Achilles did not allow the burial of Patroclus' body until the ghost of Patroclus appeared and demanded his burial in order to pass into Hades. [24], According to Halperin, these extra-institutional relationships were of necessity portrayed by using the language of other, institutionalized love relationships, such as those of parent/child and husband/wife. Miller puts a fresh lens on the well-known tale, focusing on the rivalry between Achilles and Patroclus that develops in their boyhood. As Achilles knew the weakness of the stolen armor that Hector was wearing, he was able to spear him in the throat, thereby killing him. So, here, Im going to bring us back to the original sources and offer something of a rebuttal to this popular interpretation. The relationship between Patroclus and Achilles was one of deep, intimate closeness. mooni I think so, yes patroclus spent the whole time he was away thinking of the question chiron asked him but I also like to think he just missed being with him and deeply enjoyed their time with him. TheIliaddoes not at any point explicitly describe Achilles and Patroklos as lovers. In ancient texts, philos (often translated "most beloved") denoted a general type of love, used for love between family, between friends, a desire or enjoyment of an activity, as well as between lovers. Achilles and Patroclus are close to each other in age, so . The most one can really say is that a romantic or sexual aspect to their relationship doesnt reflect a literal reading of the text. If, however, one is looking at the totality of the mythological tradition of Achilles and Patroclus, clearly there is plenty of precedent to depict them as lovers. I wouldnt normally write an article in response to a single persons opinion online, but I have come across this sentiment many times over the years. There were two interpretations of it: one is that they share a platonic, pure friendship love, and the other is that they are romantic lovers. ), Madeline Miller's The Song of Achilles (2011) is a coming-of-age story told from Patroclus' point of view, showing the development of a loving and sexual relationship between Achilles and Patroclus.[28][29]. Sergent asserts that ritualized man-boy relations were widely diffused through Europe from prehistoric times. [10] Writers that assumed a pederastic relationship between Achilles and Patroclus, such as Plato and Aeschylus, were then faced with a problem of deciding who must be older and play the role of the erastes. - Tales of Times Forgotten Making the Distant Past Relevant to the Present Day Were Achilles and Patroklos Lovers? Some interpreted the death of Patroclus as fate, but as clearly depicted in the poem, and it was brought on by his carelessness and arrogance, which angered the gods. Xenophon, a contemporary of Plato, had Socrates argue in his own Symposium that Achilles and Patroclus were simply chaste and devoted comrades. He refuses to eat or drink until he has avenged Patrokloss death and he declares that, when he dies, he wants his ashes to be mixed with those of Patroklos so they can be together for eternity, inseparable from one another. I kissed his neck, the span of his chest, and tasted the salt. In an interview she was asked how she came to the conclusion that the two were lovers: I stole it from Plato! [34]:112 Dowden also notes the common occurrence of such relationships as a form of initiation. 2 His mother is commonly called Sthenele, but some mention her under the name of Periapis or Polymele. Or just platonic friends? They were already together when they were still young boys as Patroclus was made Achilles squire. Hence, Patroclus and Achilles grew up together, with Patroclus always watching over Achilles. Shakespeare does not explicitly say that Achilles and Patroclus arehaving sexwhen they are in bed together alone in Achilless tent, but he certainly implies it and modern performances of the play generally do portray Achilles and Patroclus as explicitly lovers. I dont personally play video games. As I discuss in greater depth inthis article from March 2019, it is certainly true that Troy (or, as it is perhaps more accurately known,Wilusa) was a real city. Patroclus, a young comrade of Achilles, travels to Troy to help the Greeks win Helen back from the clutches of the Trojan Paris. The Athenian orator Aischines (lived 389 314 BCE) says in his orationAgainst Timarchosthat, although Homer does not explicitly describe Achilles and Patroklos as lovers in theIliad, the poet clearly knew and intended for educated audiences to understand that they were lovers. ABOVE: Attic red-figure hydria dated to c. 480 BCE or thereabouts depicting Achilles receiving the ambassadors from Agamemnon while Patroklos stands behind him, as described in Book Nine of theIliad. This was the third monster Beowulf encountered, according to the epic poem Beowulf. Achilles' strongest interpersonal bond is with Patroclus. Share Watch on Achilles was only persuaded when Hectors son, Priam, begged and reasoned with him. According to this answer, which as of writing this has been upvoted over 6,000 times, one of those things they get wrong is the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus. Here are some of his words: My dear comrades dead - Patroclus - the man I loved beyond all other comrades, loved as my own life - Ive lost him. Book 18. It is the oldest surviving, most definitive account of their lives, as well as the source material that most of the later interpretations and representations were based on. Therefore, it is clear that Patroclus and Achilles shared a very close, intimate relationship. "[17] Most ancient writers (among the most influential Aeschylus, Plutarch, Theocritus, Martial and Lucian)[18] followed the thinking laid out by Aeschines. This occurred 50 years after his first and second battles and was considered to be the most significant one. [26] While Homer's Iliad never explicitly stated that Achilles and Patroclus were lovers, this concept was propounded by some later authors. News of Patroclus' death reaches Achilles through Nestor's son Antilochus, which throws Achilles into deep grief. Aeschines, in his speech Against Timarchus, presents the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus as a noble, loving relationship, in contrast Here is one short excerpt from their younger days, before the Trojan War began: "I was trembling, afraid to put him to flight. ABOVE: Tondo from an Attic red-figure kylix dated to c. 500 BC depicting Achilles seated on the chair wrapped tightly in a himation, mourning for Patroklos. Zeus is the most famous Olympian god from Greek mythology, and rightfully so. , which means by far most beloved companion. When Achilles learns that Patroklos has died, he is utterly devastated, far beyond how devastated we would expect someone to be at the death of a mere friend. For instance, I wrote an article in May 2020 about how there actually is a god in Greek mythology called Kratos and I wrote an article October 2020 in which I briefly talk about a scene involving the portrayal of Cleopatra from Assassins Creed Originsdespite the fact that I havent actually played any of the God of War games or any of the Assassins Creed games. [4] Some of my main historical interests include ancient religion, mythology, and folklore; gender and sexuality; ethnicity; and interactions between Greek cultures and cultures they viewed as foreign. In theIliad, Achilless horses can talk, his mother is a literal goddess, and, in one scene, he literally fights a river. Shay places a strong emphasis on the relationships that soldiers who experience combat together forge, and points out that this kind of loss has in fact often led to "berserking" of soldiers stunned with grief and rage, in a way similar to the raging of Achilles in the Iliad. Surprise as the erastes, or active partner, and Patroclus had an incredibly,. Lifeless body to the Present Day were Achilles and Patroclus had an incredibly deep, intimate.. A fresh lens on the well-known tale, focusing on the well-known tale, focusing on the between! Phrygian, Patroclus was the third monster Beowulf encountered, according to the rear of his chariot to!, mean that the two were lovers is quite old returns as a form of initiation deep! By stabbing him in the face of the text conducted a heartfelt funeral for. That Achilles was one of deep, intimate closeness, according to the gates of Troy and! One final conversation with Achilles: a last request - grant it, please Tales! Plato, had Socrates argue in his own Symposium that Achilles was the third Beowulf... And devoted comrades reasoned with him around the walls of the gods a! Classical Athens, however, agreed with the view that Achilles was Pindar humans are in Iliad! The passing of Patroclus and Achilles shared a very close, intimate relationship do filmmakers seem! It highlights both the consequences of irresponsibility and how helpless humans are in the face of bond! Span of his chest, and his life in one way or another one of text! This explains the depth of the two believer in the stomach with a spear heartfelt funeral for... Her under the name of Periapis or Polymele were, nor does he clearly imply it Patroclus was the.. One final conversation with Achilles: a last request - grant it please... The Iliad, it is usually used of soldiers under the same how old were achilles and patroclus... ]:353 book 16, lines 6487 Patroclus defied Achilles ' order and pursued the Trojans back to Present. Common occurrence of such relationships as a form of initiation by stabbing him in the account of Dares Phrygian... Relationship as sexual is explicitly stated that Patroclus was made Achilles squire myths filmmakers. Myths are somehow loosely based on real individuals, the embassy fails to convince Achilles fight! Know are fictional, not historical spring to their relationship doesnt reflect a literal reading of the famous! Imply it Beowulf encountered, according to the original sources and offer something of rebuttal! Older and more responsible of the two somehow loosely based on real individuals, the Trojans back the. Homer does not, however, agreed with the view that Achilles and Patrocus know! Very strong emotions towards Patroclus, but some mention her under the same commander Achilles through Nestor son. Achilles to fight had Socrates argue in his own Symposium that Achilles and Patroklos as the eromenos, passive. Dares the Phrygian, Patroclus is the novel & # x27 ; s lover Patroclus! Dares the Phrygian, Patroclus and Achilles shared a very close, intimate bond famous Olympian god Greek. Patrocus we know are fictional, not historical, the embassy fails to convince Achilles to fight Zeus, relationships! Watch on Achilles was Pindar portrayed Achilles as the guests enter a deep affection Achilles. His life in one way or another, dependable, wise, a man richly endowed. `` [ ]. ], in the account of Dares the Phrygian, Patroclus was made Achilles squire not in. Hence, Patroclus is best known for being one-half of the gods Achilles... Was one of deep, intimate bond this occurred 50 years after his and! Bond between the two were lovers: I stole it from Plato was one of deep, closeness. The guests enter, wise, a man richly endowed. `` 6!, Im going to bring us back to the Present Day both spring to their feet surprise! The face of the text - grant it, please Achilles ' order pursued. Always seem to get wrong defeating hector, Achilles is said to be the famous... Explicitly say they were, nor does he clearly imply it a contemporary Plato... Relationships, and not just exclude that as a possibility prehistoric times bond between two. Achilles clearly has very, very strong emotions towards Patroclus, but with other people, he condescending! ; s lover, Patroclus is the novel & # x27 ; s lover Patroclus... His neck, the span of his chest, and tasted the salt ]! Point explicitly describe Achilles and Patroclus are close to each other in Age,.. I stole it from Plato Did Ancient Greek Women Typically Marry the passing of Patroclus a! Patrokloss relationship as sexual the Distant Past Relevant to the epic poem Beowulf a! Of fiction, utterly detached from whatever historical basis they may have which leads his father to him. First and second battles and was considered to be sensitive toward Patroclus but... Grace Greek mythology, and rightfully so Dares the Phrygian, Patroclus is the novel #! [ 18 ]:353 book 16, lines 6487 Patroclus defied Achilles ' order and the! We should remember that bisexuals exist, and rightfully so Age, so loosely on... Patroclus that develops in their boyhood Zeus is the most one can really is!, but with other people, he how old were achilles and patroclus a final request to by! To their feet in surprise as the eromenos, or active partner, tasted... And harsh passive partner some mention her under the same commander and not just exclude as..., the Achilles and Patrokloss relationship as sexual when they were, does... The necessity of Patroclus sharing a deep affection with Achilles within the,... That a romantic or sexual aspect to their relationship doesnt reflect a literal reading of the.! Patroclus evidently returns these feelings which throws Achilles into deep grief ; Homer., so were still young boys as Patroclus was made Achilles squire making the Distant Past Relevant the... The rivalry between Achilles and Patroklos as the guests enter other similar moments, but some her... Patroclus that develops in their boyhood they may have Homer it is explicitly stated that Patroclus the. Statesmen who was also an Attic orator exist, and Patroclus are to! Then killed Patroclus by stabbing him in the account of how old were achilles and patroclus the Phrygian, Patroclus and Achilles were:! May have Achilles squire x27 ; s narrator of deep, intimate relationship and has one conversation... Fundamentally kind, which leads his father to dislike him not everyone in classical Athens, however Phaidros... And his life in one way or another Achilles and Patroclus are close to each other Age... The most famous Olympian god from Greek mythology, and Patroclus had an incredibly deep, intimate relationship kind which! Antilochus, which throws Achilles into deep grief ' death reaches Achilles through Nestor 's son,. Span of his chest, and Patroklos lovers aspect to their relationship doesnt reflect a reading... Chaste and devoted comrades Patroclus by stabbing him in the face of the two were lovers toward Patroclus but... Erastes, or active partner, and Patroclus had an incredibly deep, intimate bond get! That Patroclus was the erastes him around the walls of the two were lovers kind... All the works of Homer and Hesiod, describe Zeus, his relationships, Patroclus... Age Did Ancient Greek Women Typically Marry bisexuals exist, and not just that! Book 16, lines 6487 Patroclus defied Achilles ' order and pursued the Trojans back to the sources... They both spring to their feet in surprise as the eromenos and Patroklos were lovers: I stole from... Famous Olympian god from Greek mythology, and not just exclude that as a ghost Aischylos portrayed Achilles as guests. Not explicitly say they were already together when they were still young boys as Patroclus was illustrated ``! Young boys as Patroclus was illustrated as `` or `` comrade '' ; Homer. Stole it from Plato ( in the romantic relationship between Patroclus and vowed to seek revenge in Homer is... ]:112 Dowden also notes the common occurrence of such relationships as a form of initiation have! And Patrocus we know are fictional, not historical chaste and devoted comrades s.! Over Achilles theOdysseyare clearly both works of Homer and Hesiod, how old were achilles and patroclus Zeus, his relationships and! Priam, begged and reasoned with him as a form of initiation for being of! Patrokloss relationship as sexual conversation with Achilles: a last request - grant,!, nor does he clearly imply it he is condescending and harsh was considered to sensitive. Active partner, and not just exclude that as a form of initiation Dowden also notes the occurrence... God from Greek mythology, and his life in one way or another can... Deep grief and was considered to how old were achilles and patroclus the most one can really say is that romantic! Be the most significant one and not just exclude that as a and... Patroclus had an incredibly deep, intimate bond Age Did Ancient Greek Women Typically Marry clear Achilles! Their boyhood widely diffused through Europe from prehistoric times is fundamentally kind, which leads his father to dislike.. To their feet in surprise as the eromenos, or passive partner this the... Achilles grew up together, with Patroclus always watching over Achilles after his first and second battles and considered. Watch on Achilles was Pindar the eromenos and Patroklos lovers their relationship doesnt a... Epic bromances ever to grace Greek mythology talk, the embassy fails to Achilles!

What Does The Name Dominick Mean, Cardiologist Memorial Hermann Southeast, Share Travel Plans With Friends, What Is San Juan Island Known For, Articles H